Proof Over Precedent Podcast

Proof Over Precedent is a weekly podcast discussing the work of bringing credible evidence to lawyers, judges, and decision makers, to transform the U.S. justice system into an evidence-based field. Listeners will learn from one-on-one interviews with experts in the area of access to justice–researchers, lawyers, professors, law students, data analysts, research participants, and anyone who has an interesting role in this growing area.

Cartoon depicting Upsolve in jail without a way to communicate while New York courts stand tall with a megaphone in hand

Episode 46: Upsolve in Depth—When does Legal Advice Become Illegal?

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The role of trained nonlawyer volunteers is at the center of a back-and-forth court case between nonprofit Upsolve, Inc. and Letitia James, attorney general of the state of New York. This “Student Voices” episode tackles both the access to justice issues at stake for indigent defendants in debt collection cases, as well as New York’s unauthorized practice of law statute governing the decision(s), including the most recent ruling by the New York District Court in March.

Cartoon depicting a police officer taking the shirt off of an individual's back and declaring that it was used in a crime.

Episode 45: Proof and Property—Is Civil Forfeiture a Just Practice?

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In this week’s Proof Over Precedent episode, we look at civil forfeiture—law enforcement’s seizing and relinquishing of property based on probable cause in a criminal connection—and the impact it has on individuals, including innocent third-party owners. With no guaranteed right to counsel for these cases, most individuals never challenge forfeitures; the barriers are simply too

Cartoon depicts inmate waiting to be admitted into a virtual child welfare hearing

Episode 43: Navigating Child Custody Challenges From Behind Bars

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This week’s “Student Voices” episode of Proof Over Precedent explores access to justice issues for incarcerated parents in the child welfare system. HLS student Mia Robertson looks at the process of removing a child from a home, working toward permanent placement and/or reunification, and the numerous barriers an incarcerated parent faces in custody cases, from an inability to show up for in-person hearings to a lack of reliable communication with an attorney (if they have counsel representation at all).

Cartoon depicting a mother and child on a stage between a bear representing Mother Up and holding cash out to them and a monkey representing Child Protection Services and being pulled off the stage.

Episode 42: Can Financial (and Other) Support Help Reduce Child Welfare Involvement in Neglect Cases?

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This week, Proof Over Precedent speaks with Melody Webb, Founder and Executive Director of the Mother’s Outreach Network, a Washington, DC-based racial justice and anti-poverty organization that the Access to Justice Lab partnered with in its Mother Up pre-pilot study. Webb shares her vision for the study—which looks at providing Black indigent mothers with guaranteed income to support their children in an effort to reduce child welfare agency involvement—and offers perspective on the preliminary findings from the pilot.

Cartoon depicting Mothers Outreach Network (as a bear) giving money to a mother and child (drawn as horses) to buy (horse) shoes.

Episode 41: How Evidence-Based Research Could Transform the Child Welfare System

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A2J Lab Director and Professor Jim Greiner sat down with five A2J Lab staff members to discuss “Mother Up”, a DC guaranteed income pre-pilot program with Mothers Outreach Network for Black mothers with recent CFSA involvement. The privately funded program explored how feasible it would be to conduct a larger study on the subject of guaranteed income, but this episode of Proof Over Precedent looks into why the Lab got involved with the program, how we gathered and analyzed data to apply to future evidence-leading studies, and what we’re seeing with results so far.

Cartoon comparing a household of neglect due to poverty vs. a household with a little more money running smoothly.

Episode 40: EmPwR Study–How Financial Support Means Family Support

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The Empower Parents with Resources Study is the largest randomized control trial of the effect of unrestricted cash gifts on child maltreatment in the United States. Researchers aim to find out if a reduction in financial stress equals a reduction in child welfare involvement. In this week’s Proof Over Precedent episode, HLS J.D. candidate Julia Saltzman interviews researcher William Schneider, who explains the broad impact the study may have on families, caseworkers, and child welfare policy.

Cartoon depicts two workers -- one in law and one in medicine -- asking who the "fairest" is. The medical individual reveals a robot, while the lawyer reveals her own reflection.

Episode 38: Fair or Foul–AI in Medicine and Law

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In this week’s Proof Over Precedent episode, HLS J.D. candidate Strong Ma discusses how public perceptions of fairness influence the adoption of AI and algorithms in medicine and law, two industries with varying levels of support and trust in AI. The podcast includes interviews with HLS Professors Jim Greiner and Jon Hanson weighing in on AI’s strengths and shortcomings in law, particularly as it compares to human decision making.

Cartoon depicts individual begging for cash bail to a robot judge who is refusing it

Episode 37: Navigating Pretrial Risk Assessments and Cash Bail Reform

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Is ending cash bail a path to a fairer justice system? California attempted this route in 2018 with its SB10, which would have ended cash bail statewide and replaced it with pretrial risk assessment. The effort could potentially have avoided a two-tiered, wealth-based system, but it fell short with voters. This “Student Voices” episode of Proof Over Precedent dives into the debate over cash bail, what went wrong with the SB 10 campaign, and lessons for future bail reform efforts.

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